Adieu. . . for now

I have so many posts floating around in my head and on the computer just waiting to be finished.  I, however, return to school next week and am already busily preparing for my return.    I hate that I haven't added anything substantive to the discussion here recently.  My last post was just more of an FYI and contained very little about who I am and what's going on in my life and with my quest for truth.  I want to leave you all (since I don't know how long it will take me to return to a point where I have time to write here) with just a few extra things.

First of all, I would love to implore you all to please not judge me based on what you think you know of agnostics or atheists.  There are very outspoken atheists (like Richard Dawkins) that may give you a preconceived notion of what atheists are like.  As with Fred Phelps (look him up if you don't know who he is, he'll scare your socks off so beware) and his representation of Christianity, they are the exception not the rule. They are both extreme versions of the groups they claim to represent.  So please respect me enough to not associate what I believe with what he represents.  I don't have any beef with Christians.  Sometimes I can get a little passionate and perhaps defensive but that's because I do often feel so put on the defensive.  I've tried, in my writings, to only point out the ways that certain theologies seem contradictory to me and not to attack those who believe them.  I hope that I have been more successful at that than not.  I do not wish to try and convert anyone to my way of thinking or to even make anyone question their own beliefs.  My entire purpose here is to give you all a glimpse into who I am and where I'm coming from so that you can know me better.  Trying to keep my faith a secret was so isolating.  I want to be honest with myself and with those I love (you guys!) about where I am in my life.  This has been a very confusing journey and being so isolated from sharing with you all where I was with it was very difficult.  I'm worried though, that through the magic of presuppositions, I am just as isolated now even though I have shared this part of me.  I beg of you all, please, please don't judge me on who you think I am.  If you have questions about what I believe PLEASE ask me.  I set this whole thing up to be open with you.  To explain where I am coming from.  To give you a glimpse into a part of my identity that I'm still working daily to define.  I am not amoral and do have a well defined code of behavior that is daily questioned and refined.  I am still, however, human and do have a big tendency to overreact, act selfishly and even be spiteful.  Those aren't a result of my agnosticism.  They are a result of my humanity.  Please don't ascribe any of those things to my beliefs or confusion of beliefs.

Secondly, just to clear up any confusion on where I stand with my beliefs right now.  I define myself as Agnostic.  The dictionary (New Oxford American Dictionary) I have in front of me  defines agnostic as:

"a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person whoclaims neither faith nor disbelief in God."

While that isn't exactly what I believe I feel that the a loose application of the definition applies to me and until I know another word that better describes me, I'll continue to use it.  I don't know what I do believe about the existence of God.  I plan to keep seeking even if I never do find the answers I'm looking for.  I don't know if the answers are out there but I believe there is enough reason to keep looking.  As I have described in my post about why I am not a Christian, I have many reasons to distrust God, should he exist.  Therefore, you may from time to time, hear me refer to myself as atheist.  It's not that I necessarily don't believe in God, but sometimes it is easier to simply not believe than to believe in God and hate him.  While I don't have much of a desire for a spiritual relationship or fellowship in a church I do believe that we will be attending a Unitarian Universalist church for help in our quest of understanding the different faiths.

Lastly, and I know I've covered this already, please engage in dialogue with me about what I believe.  Please don't attack me because that will only serve to make me defensive, but don't treat me and my faith like the big elephant in the room.  I don't mind talking about it and it actually helps me flesh out what I do believe.  Please don't make assumptions about what you think I believe.  Just be willing to talk to me about it and being open to any answers I may give for the questions.  I know that some of you already have a negative opinion of me and my non-homogenous view of faith but I hope that you will keep an open mind about me.  Please don't hate me because you don't understand me.  Please don't try and convert me either.  I am always open for conversation but I don't want to be preached to.  Just talk to me honestly.         

Religious freedom in the public school

Edited to include:  Here's a government website that details the government's exact stance on the facets related to prayer in school.  Government stance on prayer in schools- read here.  I hope that you can understand the reasons why it is set up this way. 


I recently had a discussion with a friend about religion and the freedom of the religious, particularly in the public school system.  Many people are misled and uninformed about the rights of the believers in the public realm, especially in the public school system.  Perhaps some of these are intentional misrepresentations by some churches to enhance a feeling of repression among believers.  I'd like to believe that it is all unintentional but I find it hard to believe that a pastor would not seek out the limits of the rights of his congregation so that they may proselytize to the full limit of their rights.  I know that was the case when my husband and I were teens, the rights of students were made very clear by the church we attended and by the leaders of statewide Christian student leadership organizations so that we would make full use of the rights we had.  My goal here is to give you guys the run-down of your rights and do my best to make it clear why it's set up this way.

Students have the right to observe whatever religious practices they choose.  They can bring bibles, pray openly, and even hold meetings of religious clubs/organizations.  These are the rights of students!  Teachers cannot lead the class (or school) in prayer or teach that the teachings in the bible are inerrant and should be taken as fact.  Teachers do have the right to teach from the bible as literature.  Teachers also have the right to read their own bible outside of class time and likewise pray, they just cannot do it as part of any classroom activity.  My main points are how these measures protect the students and how they protect the rights of Christians.

First and foremost, these measures protect the students in much the same way statutory rape laws protect minors from being coerced and pressured into sex, by an adult.  In some instances, the minor might even think that they are having consensual sex but they have simply been manipulated by the adult.  People in powerful positions often take advantage of the naivete of our youngest people.  Another example is the Hitler Youth.  It has been realized often in history that if you want to hook them, hook them young.  Teach them what you want to them to believe and they’ll believe it more than the previous generation.  Of course the level of belief and internalization depends a lot on the authority administering the indoctrination.  We always hear a lot about peer pressure but the effects of someone in a perceived position of leadership over someone else is much greater.  Children constantly seek the approval of the significant adults in their lives and I think it takes no stretch to understand that teachers more than fit the criteria of having a significant role in the life of our children.  The Milgram experiment is a great example of this and takes it to even more drastic extremes.  Milgram discovered that even adults will inflict pain on others if a person they deem is in charge tells them to do so.   He took university student (over age 18) volunteers at Yale and instructed them to administer increasingly intense shocks to another student when they answered wrongly to predetermined questions (the other person was not actually receiving shocks but only acting as if he was; the shock administer had no idea it wasn’t real).  When they started to doubt if they should continue with the experiment a person of perceived authority would enter the room and tell them to continue.  64% of the participants administered the highest voltage shock though many doubted if they should continue.  I think it is easy to conclude that impressionable young minds and even adults will bend to do things they otherwise might not have if it weren’t for the undue influence exerted on them and that they must be protected from these external pressures.  

How it protects the rights of Christians is much less of an abstract thought than protecting our children’s impressionable minds.  Keeping school-organized prayer and bible instruction out of schools isn’t anti-Christian, it’s anti-religion.  Not that the government wants to squelch religion.  It doesn’t.  It simply cannot favor one religion over any other.  If the Bible were to be taught in schools, to be equitable the Quran would have to be taught as well.  The Bhagavadgita, Tao-te-Ching, and other religious texts would have to be taught.   Various related religious practices might be implemented like the Islam adhan (call to prayer) in addition to the Christian school-led prayers that some are so eager to allow.  I’m sure few Christians would be pleased knowing that their tax dollars were providing a religious education contrary to their own beliefs.  It’s much the same way that Jewish, Muslim, Buddist, and Hindu families would be uncomfortable if their children were being forced to participate in Christian education.  The government does not say that these religious doctrines cannot be taught in all schools, it only mandates that no religion or religious text (outside of literature purposes) be taught in publicly funded institutions.  If you desire your child to receive religious instruction in a school setting then you are free to send them to a private school or homeschool.  Most would consider spirituality and religion very personal decisions.  Even among the Christian denominations, there is a wide variance of practices that might not make all other Christians feel comfortable.  There is no one-size-fits-all approach to religion and to impose any on public schools would always leave someone out.

As always, I love discussion on the things I post.  If I didn’t want to actively talk about it I wouldn’t take the time to write this stuff.     

Why I don't believe in god/ why I'm not a christian

This is one that I wrote and posted on my facebook blog back in August.  I thought I'd post it since my entries kind of jump from looking for a different religion to near full blown atheism.  

August 14, 2010

There are many reasons that I don’t believe in the Christian God but the basic one boils down to this and I think I’ll leave it here for now:

I don’t understand how a God that created the world and specifically human kind, supposedly out of love, can be so ambivalent toward his own creation.  Through Christianity, we are told that God created each of us and gave us free will to choose eternal life with him or a life in hell.  We are led to believe that everyone on Earth, regardless of whether they’ve been directly spoken to about Jesus Christ, has the opportunity to become a Christian and have this eternal “life”.  It is believed that outside of general revelation, the individual must choose Christ, so I’m going to single out the people that have other religions and have no reason to question their own devout beliefs.  There are billions of people outside the christian faith and the lack of accounting for their souls is what bothers me the most.  In this writing, I’m not going to touch upon the groups of indigenous people with tribal religions based in pantheism that most Christians argue are easily accounted for via general revelation.

I am mostly unsettled by those that faithfully worship in religions outside of Christianity like Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and Judaism.  According to the information that I was able to find with minimal work on my part this morning (http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html), Christianity claims 33% of the world’s adherents.  If you add the other four religions that I mentioned it equals 41%.  I did not include indigenous religions or the other smaller sects of asian religions as I was more interested in the major mainstream religions.  I also didn’t include the 16% of the world’s population that does not subscribe to any particular religion, whether they are theistic, agnostic, or atheistic.  My focus of this is to specifically talk about those that are devout to a major religion other than Christianity.  

Islam, Judaism and Christianity share religious roots via Abraham.  So technically they worship the god of Abraham but they eventually go their separate ways and explicitly do not agree on the deity of Jesus Christ.  Though these three differ, they do share many basic tenets.  A non-religious bystander would find them remarkably similar.  It seems odd that a little more than 21% of the world’s population are so close to being “right,” if we work under the assumption that Christianity is “right.” They can be so devout to the god that they believe rules supreme and still be turned away because they don’t believe in Jesus when they essentially are seeking to worship the same god as those that are “right.”  Then you have the other religions that aren’t based in Abrahamic tradition whose followers are just as devout but don’t worship a deity(ies) familiar to Christianity.  They still believe, the same as Christians, that their religions are the true path to eternal happiness.  All of the various religions, however similar or dissimilar to Christianity, all believe that their path is the right way.  

Here’s where my beliefs come in:

I don’t see how a god who created the whole world and specially made human kind in his own image, can willingly allow the greater majority of them to suffer because they didn’t choose the “correct” religion, much of which is determined more by geographical factors than religious ones.  If I were born in India, for instance, there is a good chance I would be either Hindu or Muslim.  Chances are that I would be fully convinced that the religion I inherited was the correct religion and the only way I would have eternal happiness.  

So we are given free-will to choose Christianity but only 33% of the world claims to be Christian right now and those numbers surely have fluctuated over time and likely will drop off in the future.  This benevolent, loving god who created the entire world’s population can be satisfied with only about a third of his “children” actually choosing to follow him.  Oh yes, it is the job of the Christian to go out and witness and try and convert all of those that are “wrong”.  There are two things wrong with that in my opinion:  1.)  Christians are greatly outnumbered.  I guess they’d really better get to filling those quivers. (I’m only half sorry for the snarkiness, forgive me).  2.) It doesn’t make much sense to me that God is banking the salvation of two-thirds of the world on the faithfulness of Christians.  First of all, that seems unfair that an inordinate number of people will burn in hell because somebody else didn’t do their job.  Secondly, it seems an unfair burden on Christians.  The odds are heavily stacked against them.  In this scenario, there will always be blood on the hands of all Christians, even if you have been able to witness and planted that seed, you still will fall short and people will die without knowing “the truth”.  I guess the life for the Christian boils down to dying with the least amount of blood on your hands.  

As a parent, I cannot fathom willingly (yes, I see it as a willing act) allowing most of my children suffer eternally, over a third of which are actively seeking the higher truth that is god but happen to be misguided simply due to the religion they inherited.   When Jude was born, I thought I felt a special connection to God through becoming a parent.  I understood that I would always love Jude more than he could possibly love me.  I chose Jude.  It was a willing act to bring him into the world.  While I didn’t get to choose the person he would become, I wanted him.  I wanted whoever he was.  He didn’t get to choose his relationship with me.  I am his parent and he has no say in that matter.  His love for me is obligatory.  It’s the same with all parental/child relationships.  As the children grow older they may come to love their parents for whom they are, based on their character, compassion, interests, etc., but in it’s basic form children love their parents out of obligation.  They love us because we meet their needs.  Needs for food, clothing, security, etc.  Parental love is much more unconditional.  I thought I related to god because of that.  We’re told that our devotion will never measure up.  God has unconditional love for us because he chose us, created us.  We can never love him as much as he loves us.  I believed that.  I believed he loved us.  Then I took off the myopic lens through which I saw the world and wondered how, if he loved all of his creation how it could be reconciled that so many of those he created and loved would end up eternally separated from him?  Only a third of which would actually make the cut.  I began to wonder if maybe all that mattered was that people were actively seeking to understand the world and were worshipping god in their own cultural subtext.  That allows for a greater number of his children to make it to heaven.  It’s directly contradictory to the beliefs held by Christians but I couldn’t see how God would allow all those out there that were worshipping, albeit misguidedly, to go to hell.  The Christian dogma tells us that the path to god is narrow and that you are special if you find that path.  That sounds sort of good and all.  It feels good to know you’re one of the lucky ones that “made it”.  But what about the others?  The others that won’t know.  They also think they are right and have no more reason to question what they believe than Christians do.  They won’t know Jesus for lack of being told or anything like that, but just because they are following the religion they were born in to, just as many Christians do.  If you are able to think outside of the box and for an instant pretend that it turns out that Islam actually holds the key to eternal communion with God but you are a Christian.  You’ve been talked to about Islam but you are solidly certain that you’re on the right path.  You have no reason to doubt that the Bible is the true word of God just as they have no reason to doubt the Qur’an.  But in the end, in this scenario, no matter how devout you are or even how close your religion is to Islam, you end up eternally damned and the Muslims turn out to be right and get to go to heaven.  I just cannot fathom that a God that created everyone would make eternal life such an exclusive club.  I would never put one of my children’s fates in the hands of my other child.  That is unfair to both children.  Jude doesn’t deserve to be held responsible for Lennon’s life choices or moral character.  Lennon, also shouldn’t be punished because Jude somehow neglected to morally instruct him.  I, as the parent, am the one that should be held responsible.  Why doesn’t god take that same responsibility?  The entire population of Earth are our brothers and sisters.  They don’t deserve to suffer because of the inadequacy of those that “know the truth”.  Christians are the first to remind us, and rightly so, that they are just mere humans.  That they are fallen and imperfect.  It utterly confuses me that god would leave things of such eternal consequence in the hands of those he knows to be fallen and incompetent of such a task.  It is the parent’s responsibility to instruct their kids but it seems that God is willing to pass that off on his kids, even if that means that most of them get overlooked in the meantime.  I don’t understand how God can sit back and say, “I’ve done enough” when so many will miss out and be eternally separated from him.       

I was asked semi-recently about free-will.  I was arguing that it hardly seemed fair that so many, would be left behind because they mis-chose the religion they followed or simply relied on the one they inherited.  At the time, I really didn’t know my argument on the subject.  The person asked if I would like it if my children only loved me because they were forced to.  They argued that is why god gave humans free will.  He wants us to choose him.  I sort of understand that reasoning.  That kind of chosen love does seem more genuine.  As I’ve already explained, I don’t think that our children really have that kind of love for us, though, at least not initially, it’s more obligatory.  I do believe that they do grow to love us for who we are, not just what we provide, but that it’s never really free.  Yes, that does bother me and I see the benefit in them wanting to willingly love me.  I understand that it would be awesome.  However, it would seem that God wants us to choose him and wants us to follow the right way, but while it may grieve him that most do not, he’s okay with it as long as some of his children manage to get it right.  It feels, to me, like he is an insecure teenager looking to get his ego stroked.  “Please like me, please!!  If you do I’m going to have an awesome party this weekend to reward those of you that do like me.  Oh and just so you know, all you guys that don’t like me, you guys are going to die and it’s not going to be pretty.  You know that deep down I’ll always like you even if you don’t like me; but still, if you don’t tell me how much you like me, or if you don’t do it right; you’ll suffer and it’s more or less out of my hands.”  

Also, is it even really free will?  God offers an incentive to behave a certain way and a retributive punishment if we don’t.  If there are rewards and punishments attached, in my mind, it does not support the idea that god gave humans free will because he wanted true love.  I mean, a parent can get their child to attend every family function if they offer them something.  Likewise, if you threaten to take something away, you can elicit a similar response.  Here, god who is supposed to be seeking genuine lovers of him as the purpose of this free will, is offering both a bribe and a harsh punishment.  I’m sure I’m not alone in praying that prayer because I was scared of Hell.  How is becoming a Christian because of fear or even because of reward any different than not having a choice?  The only difference I can see is that so many die and go to hell in the scenario with free will.

I just cannot entertain the idea of worshipping such a cruel god.  To see any of your children suffer eternally, even if they do knowingly turn their back on you, does not follow the idea of a loving and forgiving god.  I mean, Jesus always preached that you should turn your cheek infinitely if your neighbor harms you.  But God, the supposed father of Jesus, has much less of a forgiving nature.  I mean god, willingly hardened the hearts of many just so his will could be done for his “chosen people”.  I just cannot reconcile it.

I’m going to leave you all with a quote that I find very wise and it very aptly sums up my stance toward god:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?

Then why call him God?” ~ Epicurus

On spirituality and my lack of desire for it

I think I discovered something about myself today. My great big revelation is just that I believe that there are some of us that just aren't/can't be spiritual. I think that there are many people that want and need a spiritual connection with something greater but I'm not one of them.

I'm also not saying that people who do desire a spiritual connection are weak or lesser than those of us that don't but I just think that maybe we should all respect our differences in this aspect.  What I am saying is that I recognize that spirituality in it's many forms is very important in the lives of many.  I think it helps people find the answers they are looking for to  questions about the meaning of life.  I don't think there is anything wrong with that.  I am just not one of those people and I'm okay with that.  Even when I was a very small child I resented even simple bedtime prayers.  I just don't think I was wired to seek a personal spiritual relationship or to believe various myths (please don’t get hung up on the word) that others find it easy to place their faith in.  I don’t believe that means I’m right and they are wrong.  It just means that we are different and have different spiritual needs and desires.    

Who knows, maybe there is some predestination stuff at play and if there is a god he just doesn't want me.  If he does exist, he continually makes it clear to me that he doesn't want me because everything that has happened seems to have been designed to harden my heart since each thing has been absolutely the most cutting that could have happened.  Assuming he does exist, you wouldn't think that he would allow someone in a vulnerable questioning position to be so beaten down.  You'd think that being god, he'd know my vulnerabilities and not choose things that had such a potential to push me further away.  But those rambles are only applicable in the event that there is just one great truth that equals a benevolent god.

What I have actually come to believe is that many humans desire a spiritual connection with something higher than themselves.  That’s why we get the variety of religions including things like mediation.  Not all people find comfort in these rituals.  I wish that we could all respect each other enough to not feel this need to try and convince the other side that they must come over to our side because we are right.  Maybe it’s just living in this postmodern, pluralistic society.  It just seems that there are way too many possibilities for just any one of them to be right for everybody.  I honestly just think that we pick the one that makes us feel the most secure in our spirituality and humanity.  For me that means no spirituality or just a very superficial one through meditation.

Isolation

Having different ideas of god and religion than the mainstream or at least the mainstream of my current peer group is very lonely and isolating. Not only do I have these different perspectives on things but I haven't told my family and friends, for the most part. They know that we aren't going to church and don't really have an intention to return but they don't know that we've questioned the very fabric of our belief in god. I would like to tell them but I want to fully define what I do and don't believe so that I can face their questions. I wish we had some friends that were in the same boat and also questioned it all and don't take everything for face value. It's all too much to carry alone. I'm so thankful that my husband and I are on the same page with all this. It is remarkable. Just two and a half years ago we were going to move to Kansas City so that Chad could attend a Southern Baptist Seminary and become a minister or theologian. Now we both are leaning agnostic. This really could've done a number on our relationship if we hadn't changed together. It's hard enough on us as it is since we are so isolated together and are each other's only outlet. I just hate this isolation so much. It's not that I wish we mindlessly still followed Christianity because that was miserable too but I wish we had someone to share this all with. That we could be open about our belief and cynicism.

The path here. . .

This entire blog is dedicated to my quest to discovering my true religious, doctrinal, and eternal beliefs. Much of these writings will be contradictory to what I was brought up to believe and what many of you also believe. I have not invited you all here to try and convince me of the Way but to share with you my own struggles with Christianity in general and religion in its entirety. I know that I am not the first one to ever struggle with these issues and I am certain that I will not be the last. I also believe that the unexamined life is not worth living and I refuse to accept anything based on the premise that it was what I was taught. I do not trust anyone that believes themselves to have life all figured out. If a person believes that they have all the answers they just prove themselves to be following a certain path mindlessly. I have no intention to follow God mindlessly or take for granted that Christianity is most certainly the path to the real God. How very egotistical must we be to assume that we necessarily chose correctly out of the plethora of religions. I also do not believe that God desires us to have an entirely blind faith. I believe that God does not require or desire us to simply follow 'dictates' mindlessly. I believe he would have us seek him and not just through the Bible. He would have us question our beliefs and the things we have been taught.